They said:
This alleged therapy consists of wrapping the patient (wearing only underclothes or naked in the case of young children) several times a week during weeks or months in towels soaked in cold water (10°C to 15°C). The individual is wrapped with blankets to help the body warm up in a process lasting 45 minutes, during which time the child or adolescent is accompanied by two to four staff...
The alleged goal of this technique is to “allow the child to rid him- or herself progressively of its pathological defense mechanisms against archaic anxieties,” by achieving “a greater perception and integration of the body, and a growing sense of containment..."
We have reached the consensus that practitioners and families around the world should consider this approach unethical.Le Packing is almost unheard of outside France, where it was invented some years ago by M. A. Woodbury, an American psychiatrist. It's controversial even there.
Now Pierre Delion, a French packer who's previously defended the approach, and even wrote the book on it, has penned an article which discusses the towel-based treatment: Towards a dialogue between psychoanalysis and neuroscience: Connections that are both possible and necessary
The piece (part of a special issue on psychoanalysis and neuroscience) starts out with some general scholarly remarks about previous authors who have discussed Freud and the brain, but it moves on to autism, with some, well, puzzling remarks:
During the first months of life, an infant will actively practice his or her archaic reflexes. Of these, the grasping, which will progressively disappear as voluntary prehension emerges around the age of 4–5 months, is of great interest. The facilitation and/or anaclitic relationships between this reflex and adhesive identification are even more interesting to study together because, for instance, in an autistic child, the first model will integrate under the form of pathological adhesive identification.
Hmm.In such an example, a strategy for thinking about these two phenomena and making them compatible is using a third term (e.g., Peircean logic, in which adhesive identification is an icon of grasping). If we refer to this important principle from this great American semiotician, the icon is part of the logical representation scheme from the most elementary, the icon, to the most evolved, the symbol, passing by the intermediate, the index...The relationships between neurological wiring and pre-wiring enable the effective installation of the theory of mind and the phenomenon of projective identification described by Melanie Klein and her students...
On Le Packing itself we get a curious paragraph which seems to be saying that the therapy itself works via a neurophysiological mechanism, but that Freudian theory can explain why the child and their caregivers are anxious. What the anxiety in question is about is not clear. About the packing? That seems the most natural reading:
Another example taken from Pierre Delion’s practice as a therapist for children with autistic disorder is the ‘‘packing’’ technique (Goeb et al., 2008). This is the use of humid wrapping to prevent self-mutilation by using these two different levels [i.e. neuroscience and psychoanalysis] that are nonetheless joint during treatment. This technique uses a neurophysiological hypothesis to try to explain the therapeutic effects, but, at the same time, the psychopathological hypothesis that is given by psychoanalysis helps to format the anxieties that are experienced by the children and invariably shared by their caretakers.
Clinical research regarding this topic is currently being undertaken in Pierre Delion’s child psychiatry department following a hospital program for clinical research (PHRC, NoEudra CT: 2007-A01376-47) entitled ‘‘Demonstration of the efficiency of packing treatments in children affected by autistic disorders with severe behavioral disorders’’.
Delion P (2011). Towards a dialogue between psychoanalysis and neuroscience: Connections that are both possible and necessary. Journal of physiology, Paris PMID: 21963531
72 comments:
Packing is hydrotherapy, re-packaged. plus ca change...
http://schizophreniatreatments.bravehost.com/
"The first widely acknowledged therapy [for schizophrenia] of the twentieth century was hydrotherapy. This treatment consisted of several devices and techniques that made use of water. The two most popular means of administering hydrotherapy were the continuous bath and the wet sheet pack. Following a doctor's order for a "pack" (since it was a "medical" intervention, a doctor's order was always required), an attendant would dip a sheet in water ranging from 40 to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, then snugly wrap it around the patient and tie the patient to the bed if they resisted. Patients remained in this cocoon-like state for several hours. At first, the individual might experience cooling as water evaporated off the dripping, water-soaked cloth but, as his or her body began to generate heat, the pack would warm. Often, an attendant would swaddle the packaged patient in an outer blanket, tying the more resistant patient securely to a bed."
Pr Delion effectively claim the inheritage of hydrotherapy. He says he learned that practice with M.A. Woodburry who came from Chestnut lodge and lived in the 13th arrondissement of Paris in the years 1960-1970.
I think Pr Delion suggests that the grasping reflex exists because babies are afraid of falling. Meanwhile, that reflex is unvolontary.
A documentary, with english subtitles, about packing can be seen at these adresses :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmw_z3KPCPw&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlh06m_packing-session-with-autistic-children-in-the-human-and-abuse-right-country_news
another documentary film : the wall is also with english subtitles
http://www.youtube.com/user/magabrac#g/c/5CC7A73774FAF3F0
THE WALL : psychoanalysis put to the test for autism
This 52 minutes movie, in 5 parts, is the result of 4 years of investigation among 30 psychiatrists and psychoanalysts in France, that shows the way they see autism and deal with children with autism. Some of them are in charge of pedopsychiatry departments in hospitals today. 50 years of progress in science do not seem to have had any influence on their dogmatism made by Sophie Robert and producted by Ocean Invisible Productions with the support of " autistes sans frontières"
It reminds me of "Attachment Therapy", a folk alternative treatment in the USA.
Pr Delion seems to beleive that the grasping reflex shows that young babies are afraid to fall into nothing. Meanwhile, he is a doc, he perfectly knows that the reflex is unvolontary.
the documentary about packing is available with english subtitles at theses adresses
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlh06m_packing-session-with-autistic-children-in-the-human-and-abuse-right-country_news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmw_z3KPCPw&feature=channel_video_title
to know the way psychanalysts in france see autism : the film, le mur.
THE WALL : psychoanalysis put to the test for autism
This 52 minutes movie, in 5 parts, is the result of 4 years of investigation among 30 psychiatrists and psychoanalysts in France, that shows the way they see autism and deal with children with autism. Some of them are in charge of pedopsychiatry departments in hospitals today. 50 years of progress in science do not seem to have had any influence on their dogmatism.
made by Sophie Robert and producted by Ocean Invisible Productions with the support of " autistes sans frontières "
The wall can be seen with english subtitles at that adress
http://www.youtube.com/user/magabrac#g/c/5CC7A73774FAF3F0
I agree with the comparison with attchment therapy. It's a question of belief, that story is a proval that well diplomed people can fall into irrational believes.
Some caregivers can be lured by the fact that autistic children who are reluctant to look eyes into the eyes are able to do it during the pack.
Meanwhile, it can be a symptom of partial loss of consciousness.
In 2009, an association of parents, Lea pour Samy, called for a moratorium on that practice. The Health Minister promised to ask the Health general direction to assess for mistreatment.
The High Council Public Health (HCSP) found that there was not enough papers in peer reviewed journals to give an advice from litterature. It was decided to interview a group of experts.
The problem is that a majority of the experts were packing practitionners and decided not to discuss about mistreatment. So the few opponents could say nothing because they had no practice.
Clear, you cannot be an expert if you do not practice !
The HCSP did not identifed somatic risks and allow the continuation of that practice, only recommending information for parents.
Ridicoulous advices such as beeing carefull not to make small folds with sheets have been written in the report.
A risk has been identified : Caregivers can imagine to perceive the intimate experience of the child. The problem with that is not for the child or for the caregivers, but that it can lead to a pseudo-psychoanalytic verbiage that would surprise parents and discourage their collaboration.
The report can be downloaded at that adress
http://www.hcsp.fr/docspdf/avisrapports/hcspr20100202_packing.pdf
Mr Neuroskeptic
This sounds remarkably similar to the water treatments favoured by the Victorian English in spa towns such as Malvern. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrotherapy)
I have not read this book, but would strongly doubt the evidence base for such assertions without even reading you post.
It is a tragedy and a crime that so much half-baked 'treatment' amounts to little more than punishing the victims...
About the grasping reflex, Pr Delion wrote this :
Gravity: in the womb, the baby does not really know his weight as he is contained in the amniotic fluid. From the moment he is born, he meets a feeling of heaviness which will apply to him drastically. Often, however, at the time of the birth of our babies, we parents fear that the nurse let them fall! These are the memories of our own perceptions. This is a paradigm of archaic anxieties .[..] The autistic child, who since the beginning of his life, feel the anguish of not ceasing to fall and does not find the answers that enable him to normally cope with it, will probably invest reflexes so that the only way to keep him from falling is to continue to hold on, to continue to grasp. The reflex will gradually be invested by his libido, this will increase his gripping mechanisms and general motricity.[..] At this point, I often cite the following example of a child who I usually meet at the workshop tales. I arrive at the day hospital at a time when he does not expect it. Sameness appears and he said _ actually, he did not say "Can't you come at the usual time, I am disoriented, I had managed to distance my archaic fears, and, because I'm disturbed in my habits, my archaic fears come back, and I fall and I cling to the guy who passes by ". It's me! He grasped my neck like climber would do with a unique peak, that is, in a very vital way to him.
Original can be found at that adress :
http://bibliothequeopa.blogspot.com/2009/04/pierre-delion-conference-sur-la.html
Thus, according to Pr Delion, an autistic child invest the grasping reflex in order to avoid to fall. If it was thrue, that reflex would not disappear at would be very strong at age one. Thus giving a very easy criteria of diagnosis.
Either something went very wrong in the translation, or those two passages are post-modernist creative writing, not science.
Anonymous: The article was published in English under the name of the author and it doesn't thank anyone for translation, so we have to assume it was written in English, but clearly English is not Delion's first language so we have to take account of that.
May be anonymous was speaking of my translation of Delion's conference on that site
http://bibliothequeopa.blogspot.com/2009/04/pierre-delion-conference-sur-la.html
The text of the conference is rather long.I tried to translate only the part about grasping reflex. I did not translate each word, but I think, the meaning is there.
Here is the original of the part of the conference I tried to translate:
autre exemple encore beaucoup plus parlant, celui de la pesanteur : dans le ventre maternel, le bébé ne connaît pas vraiment la pesanteur, il est contenu dans du liquide amniotique. Pour le bébé, c'est inscrit. Il a en quelque sorte enregistré son poids comme un poids dans l'eau et en plus contraint dans l'utérus maternel, comme notre poids lorsque nous sommes dans l'eau de la baignoire. Dès l'instant où il va naître, il rencontre une sensation de pesanteur qui va s'appliquer à lui de façon très importante. Souvent d'ailleurs, au moment de la naissance de nos bébés, nous parents, nous sommes tous en train de nous dire pourvu que la sage-femme ne le lâche pas ! Ce sont les réminiscences de nos propres perceptions. Voilà un paradigme d'angoisses archaïques.[..] L'enfant autiste qui, depuis le début de sa vie, vit ces angoisses de ne pas cesser de tomber sans trouver les réponses qui lui permettent de s'en sortir avec les méthodes classiques, va investir probablement ce réflexe archaïque de telle sorte que la seule solution pour ne pas tomber, c'est de continuer de s'agripper, continuer à faire du grasping, non plus d'une façon réflexe mais d'une façon progressivement investie par sa libido et qui va redoubler le développement des mécanismes de préhension d'abord et progressivement de motricité plus générale[..] A ce point-là, je présente souvent l'exemple suivant d'un enfant que je vois habituellement à l'atelier conte. J'arrive à l'hôpital de jour à une heure où il ne s'y attend pas. Sameness se manifeste et il me dit _ enfin il ne me le dit pas justement : "tiens, t'arrives pas à l'heure habituelle, je suis déboussolé, j'avais réussi à mettre à distance mes angoisses archaïques et voilà que, parce que je suis bousculé dans mes habitudes, elles reviennent mes angoisses archaïques et je tombe et je m'accroche au type qui passe par là. C'est moi ! Mon cou s'offre à sa prise comme un piton pour l'alpiniste quand il sent que tous les autres pitons se dérobent c'est à dire d'une manière très vitale pour lui.
About twenty parents of autistic children representing sixteen associations came to demonstrate against the Packing Thursday in Biarritz, where the congress corps and psyche (body and psyché) took place :
a photo of the demonstration :
http://www.sudouest.fr/2011/10/14/sante-non-a-la-methode-dite-du-packing-a-biarritz-526608-4749.php
Corps & Psyché 14 and 15 october 2011 à BIARRITZ with the participation of E.Allouch, A. Brun, P. Delion, E. Ferragut, N. Girardier, J. Guimon, F. Joly, F. Ladame, A.M. Latour, R. Roussilon, J.L. Sudres, M. Rodriguez, L. Villetard etc.
site of the congress corps and psyche :
http://corpsetpsy.canalblog.com/archives/2010/12/27/19980465.html
One can wonder how such a paper is published in a scientific journal.
May be the answer is in the guide for authors which can be dowloaded there :
http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journaldescription.cws_home/523852/authorinstructions
There, one will find
1 :
Each issue of the Journal of Physiology - Paris is commissioned by invitation, to provide an overview of an important area of neuroscience research. We will publish both review and research papers from the leading researchers in the field. The journal does not accept spontaneous submissions.
2 :
Please submit, with the manuscript, the names, addresses and e-mail addresses of 4 potential referees. Note that the editor retains the sole right to decide whether or not the suggested reviewers are used.
Coward Ki du said
I am not amused by your pseudo euphonics because it is too ambiguous: are you medical qualified or is it ironic to the profession?
More problematic and insufferable to my mind:
How dare you use a pseudo when the numerous interventions and translations (if indeed your are the author of the latter) would be those of a campaigner?
Do you not realize that what permit such abuses of human rights in France is cowardice of the French?
Please tell me what is justifying the fact that you do not put your name on that blog when you were very very careful in avoiding any possible legal inconveniences for you (Pr Delion would have to make a case against himself to have your comment discussed by a judge)?
Why are you not writing about the moral ban against France for not respecting the human rights with allowing packing at the Catania congrès of Autism Europe of 2010?
NB: How wrong would you be if you were to tink of I as a Pr Delion or packing supporter but you wrote one time too many without your name for my poor nerves!
Rob lindeman
Do you not realized that some progresses in knowledge have been made in psychiatry since the "first acknoledged therapy of the twentieth century?
I suspect that either you abdicated any decency for "un bon mot" to look witty or you do not have any to start with!
a new paper of Pr Delion
http://www.cairn.info/resume.php?ID_ARTICLE=RPPG_057_0047
Revue de psychothérapie psychanalytique de groupe
2011/2 (n° 57)
Coudre doucement sujet, corps, groupe, institution : réflexions à partir des pratiques du packing jusqu’à une psychothérapie institutionnelle
translation google :
Sew slowly about, body, group, institution: reflections from practice packing up institutional psychotherapy
Auteur Pierre Delion
Abstract : The technique of the wet pack offers new possibilities for psychotherapy with autistic and psychotic children and adolescents by focusing attention on the body. Not only the physical body, but the image of the body, as developed by several authors since Freud. For reasons which are still difficult to elucidate, wet packing was presented as a dangerous procedure by an organization of parents of autistic children. This article reviews the history of wet packing and tries to show how, on the contrary, it can open new ways of thinking about the psychopathology and psychotherapy of psychoses, and thus contribute to better care for children afflicted with autism and other invasive developmental problems.
Keywords : packing, autism, psychoses, psychotherapy
Coward and pathetic Ki du said
Do you really think 20 parents manifesting and representing 16 associations is something to boast about?
This when numerous autistic children and family in France are submitted to a medical establishment and authorities who refuse de facto the advances of sciences and basic human rights?
Even when a local newspaper like Sud-Ouest published of photo and an article knowing that that kind of papaer is well... for local news and perople buy it to see the faces of their neighbors printe.
You wrote:
About twenty parents of autistic children representing sixteen associations came to demonstrate against the Packing Thursday in Biarritz, where the congress corps and psyche (body and psyché) took place :
a photo of the demonstration :
http://www.sudouest.fr/2011/10/14/sante-non-a-la-methode-dite-du-packing-a-biarritz-526608-4749.php
Corps & Psyché 14 and 15 october 2011 à BIARRITZ with the participation of E.Allouch, A. Ki du SaidBrun, P. Delion, E. Ferragut, N. Girardier, J. Guimon, F. Joly, F. Ladame, A.M. Latour, R. Roussilon, J.L. Sudres, M. Rodriguez, L. Villetard etc.
site of the congress corps and psyche :
http://corpsetpsy.canalblog.com/archives/2010/12/27/19980465.html
16 October 2011 19:56
Sorry for the pseudo, I do not understand why it is ambiguous or ironic for the medical profession. Ki du means black dog in Brittany. I did not attempt to annoy the medical profession and I do not know it can have a different meaning for doctors. Sorry for this.
To reassure you, I am not a doctor in medecine.
Meanwhile, I want to be anonymous. I do not think my name will add usefull information to what I write here.
To be credible, one has to keep to the facts, that's what I do. Why would my comments be discussed by a judge? I have just reported what is written elsewhere, giving the links to the original.
The article 'against the packing' written in Catania and the condamnation of France are two different events.
I am not writing about 'Against le packing' because Neuroskeptic has done it, I won't repeat what he has said.
THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE as condamned France in 2004.
Here is a link to the Resolution ResChS(2004)1
Collective complaint No. 13/2002
Autisme-Europe against France
https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?Ref=ResChS(2004)1&Language=lanEnglish&Ver=original&Site=COE&BackColorInternet=DBDCF2&BackColorIntranet=FDC864&BackColorLogged=FDC864
Coward and pathetic Ki du said
I am afraid only you and I are reading those commentary on an old post fo NS.
I want to let you know that I have paid 10 000 euros of my own money - who will be blocked for may be 12 years years when I am not rich as a garantor to the French State in a legal criminal suit I put against the medical council and Mrs bachelot then health minister in 2008 when I was considered unqualified to open a private practice in Paris because an eighty years old retired psychiatrist at the Paris medical board couldn't read English and an other geriatric case nut told me that he couldn't see what was the point to be competent in autism for an adult psychiatrist.
I am not expecting any help from any French autisitc parental association who-to my knownledge are directed by people too angry for power to gain any momentum and too afraid of politicians to be useful to their cause.
I understand you are angry.
I do not want to tell how I met the word autism because it does not concern me or someone of my familly. At that time what shoked me is that most people had preconceived notions and that no one has sought information.
I kept interested in the subject and discovered the situation of autism in France.
I tried to speak about packing to my general practitioner, I was surprised, not only he knew about packing, but he thought it was a good treatment, as for exemple, he said : Do you know Temple Grandin who has invented a squeeze machine? I wonder how the beleif that such a practice can be benefic is propagated among the medical profession.
Dr Temple Grandin gave her opinion about packing : I would hate packing. The child should be able to control the pressure himself. The squeeze machine works on this principle. Packing would be useless and highly stressful for the child.
Pathetic coward and hypocrite self- publicity making for a mediocre documentary
Ki du Said
19 November 2011 09:33
So you are using a disgusting pseudo because you are not a doctor!
I guess you are the filmmaker who is trying to get worldwide recognition then.
Give me a break: I tols you I am competent in autism and I am a doctor!
I know what Temple Grandin think about packing because she is a very successful writer for the lay people.
But what stupid arrogant and moneyseeking people like you do not know is that
Temple Grandin is a mixed blessing to the autistic communauty.
For example not every autistic person think in picture.
Sorry, Ivana, Beleive me, I still do not understand why Ki du is disgusting. For me it only means black dog in Breton.
I am not a film maker.
Ki di said 21 November 2011 05:19
May I suggest then that to make your pseudo less disgusting you opt for Ki di tell you or translate said in breton or anything that will prevent your pseudo to sound like the MD symbol in French?
Because it is bad enough to live in a country full of French cowards -them being breton or not -who have no courage to defend the human rights of the mentally ill and not only autistic persons and the other vulnerable like the eldery.
Without thinking that somebody is making fun at us a profession.
The medical board is disgusting : it protect every abuse like a mad or criminal doctor who kept his medical licence until the Health Minister took action after being indicted for killing elderly persons not asking for it in a sadististc way: curare injectins as pleasant a death as being thrown out of a window
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2011/11/18/le-docteur-bonnemaison-suspendu-par-le-ministre-de-la-sante_1605954_3224.html
N: The psychoanaliysts who inflict torture to autistic children and insults to the mothers don't deserve to be doctors but the Medical Board - Conseil de l'ordre- has only one scope to assure docors that no matter how sick or ignorante they will bleft alone as long as they pay their mandatory contribution money to the coucil and do not ask them to educate a colleague or defend a patient against a colleague.I did that twice and suffer in my wallet and reputation but if I had been anonymous I uldnot have been helpful TO THE PATIENTS THAT IS.
May I asked you to delete my
comment 21 November 2011 21:58 where the last paragraph is a middle age related error of manipulation on the damned little screen?
Mon prénom est Nicole.
I am triing to put together the arguements of those who pack, in order to find if theses arguments are not coherent between themselves or with common knowledge.
Sorry Nicole X even a person as thick as you can read at least the first 4 lines of neuroskeptic original post.
He is very clear and nobody needs you to condemn the packing.
"Earlier this year, a large group of autism experts signed a consensus statement condemning "Le Packing", a certain procedure used in children with autism."
NS also exposed Pr Delion
"Now Pierre Delion, a French packer who's previously defended the approach, and even wrote the book on it, has penned an article which discusses the towel-based treatment: Towards a dialogue between psychoanalysis and neuroscience: Connections that are both possible and necessary"
You were not:
"I am triing to put together the arguements of those who pack, in order to find if theses arguments are not coherent between themselves or with common knowledge."
Your coward behavior is just ludicrious.
Of course, nobody needs me to condamn packing. Meanwhile there are still a lot of people who do not condamn it.
Nicole X the pathetic coward publicity seeking 22 November 2011 11:16:
"Mon prénom est Nicole.
I am triing to put together the arguements of those who pack, in order to find if theses arguments are not coherent between themselves or with common knowledge."
Nicole X the pathetic coward publicity seeking 22 November 2011 20:59
"Of course, nobody needs me to condamn packing. Meanwhile there are still a lot of people who do not condamn it."
Anybody see the pathetic contradiction?
You were making publicity to the English speaking community for a French documenty reinventing the wheel. Full stop.
I get even sicker from French people like you who know perfectly well that vulnerable people like autistic persons and their families and significant other for some aspies are suffering under the crazy very French political lobby of psychoanalysts and the lack of moral of the medical board (Conseil de l'ordre des médecins) who should act to make the medical practice up to date with worldwide medical knowledge.
It will take me time and sacrifice on the personal level but I will have the medical board condemmend because I am not a coward like you.
Beware:I am not sure I will have the courage to stand up against the Mafia di Sicilia or the Camorra di Napoli. You need to be heroic to do that.
But to stand up with your full name against packing is not heroism it is just not being a coward.
Trying to get power by presiding an association or making money with a documentary that reinvent the wheel is just a disgustingly French coward attitude: I am a coward but want to look generous and clever and make money with it.
Another French breton woman Marine Le Pen is asking for the death penalty come back because a 13 years old girl has been raped and killed by a 17 years old who had raped another young teenage girl last year and president Sarkosy took the sad occasion to make fuss about it promising more repressive meures.
But, an incomptetent psychiatrist had written that the boy was no danger to society when the first rape victim had been also tortured and it is known that such an antecedent of physical violence is of very bad prognosis and the risk of killing the next victim was high. Plus the justice system had not find time to judge him in more than a year in a very simple case.That psychiatrist to my mind should be put to justice and Ibet he is a psyhoanalmyst but onecannot b sure of that point. What is certzain is that tht psychiatrist practice is not up to date with medical knowledge.
Also many poorly competent people make money from autistic persons family jst by proposing a costly private non psychoanalytic alternative.
The Asperger aide France association president -an elderly lady who became more French than the French- wanted me - or any doctor just to put my signature on other people diagnosis and pretended that would keep my mouth shut when her stupid failed theater director - giving theater classes in her association which is OK in itself- was talking silly but considering himself an expert because he gives theater courses and the president likes him.
At least the psychoanalysts have the excuse of belonging to a sect under attack from the world and they live in autarcy.
You have no excuse Nicole the ludicrious coward making publicity for a documentary that reinvent the wheel.
Nicole X the ludicriously thick and coward publicity maker for a French documentary.
"Il faut commencer par le commencement, et le commencement c'est le courage"
Vladimir Jankélévitch. French philosopher.
"You must begin from the first step and the first step is courage."
And to take up the psychoanalyst lobby peculiar to France you need very little courage just a little decency when you read English and can check for yourself that as neuroskeptic put it:
"Earlier this year, a large group of autism experts signed a consensus statement condemning "Le Packing", a certain procedure used in children with autism."
NB: Neuroskeptic creates smart metaphors when needed and writes beautifully and very clearly unlike other scientists. he could be a science journalist and makes scientific and ethic difficult issues available to stupid like you.
And packing is not a difficult issue because
such a cruel treatment would need to get extraordinary results -the kind of results who do not need statistics like the first antibiotics penicillin.
But you, Nicole X - who tried to pass for a doctor or make fun at doctors with a "Ki du Said" pseudo whose euphonics makes the medical symbol in French- do not wanted to research about packing or stand up against it.
You wanted to take a personal profit from it for you or a friend or a boss of yours.
You wanted to make publicity for a French documentary that reinvented the wheel.
Possibly also you wanted to make publicity for one little of the much too many and cowardly parents of autistc children associations.
Nicole X
I am worrying deeply for you in case greed and stupidity were becomming a criminal offense.
Say, next time populist pdt SARKOSY makes a new law in an emergency after a horrendous crime.
Like "le meurtre d'Agnès" Torture and rape of a 13 years old by a 17 years old who had raped and totured but not killed another 13 year old a year before.
An extreme far right Breton political dynasty heir , Marine Le Pen, is making her French electorate grows and desires death penalty after "le meurtre d'Agnès".
Instead of denouncing the inefficient and slow justice system with judges selected for more of 40 years of cicil service job at 22 or 23 years of age with only university experience for most of them.
Instead of asking the Justice to make the medical board Gestapo t care of deontology for doctors:ie not to give patients immortality and health but to use the current medical knownledge.
The deontoilogy for forensic psychiatrists is to know the few knowledge we have like antecedent of physically asaulting somebody and torture plus rape instead of rape by surprise are very strong indicators of dangerousness for the future.
And a French forensic psychiatrist advised a judge that after having raped and also tortured a 13 years old girl a teenager was not dangerous anymore and could be freed after 4 month in jail to await trial.
The judiciary system and an headmaster plus th eparent of the murderer made every possible move to help him take a second victim in a seveties openspirit rich boarding school letting boys and girls looking for hallucinogen mushrooms in a forest surrunding the 11 000 a year international boarding school.
Ivana: Please don't insult people just for asking questions, as Nicole did.
You're welcome to comment and debate on this blog but calling people cowards etc. for no good reason won't go down well.
Neuroskeptic, a scientist should expose fraud and in France people like Nicole use the psychoanalyst abuses of autistic people and their families and significant other for some aspies to gain personnal fame and or to make money.
Your post was clear and Nicole knew perfectly well the objection of the only possible usefulness of packing (physical pressure Temple Grandin machine like)
She was making commercial or fame seeking advertissment for a documentary payin thepart of the activist but with a pseudo like if she were standing up against the Sicilian mafia.
Besides fair neuroscietist:
omg called me names and accused me of being against video games just because they sell and it was OK .
omg said...16 November 2011 16:57 wrote:
" Ivana, noob, overall weirdo, I eat bananas when I play Donkey Kong, mushrooms with Mario.. you know the game that goes dudududii nerdududu nohohoho life.
You, Crowley and Susan Greenfield + noobs should salute to the sun pilate your way through the war against terrorism, fight poverty, democracy, protest.
(...)Just because they've commercialized what sells, don't mean it can't be consumed in moderation."
Ivana, you charge me while I am not guilty.
I never attempted to make money or gain personnal fame.
I never attempted to suggest I was a doctor in medecine. I am not.
I did not do anything wrong in giving a link to the film le mur. As for my knowledge of Dr Grandin's opinion about packing, it is also a mother who simply wrote to her and, about a month ago, received the answer I posted here.
Upper in this subjet , I gave a link to another new paper of Pierre Delion, will you blame me with advertisement for packing ? Note, that, according to the abstract, Pierre Delion seems to ignore the existence of against le packing
A paper of Pierre Delion
COUDRE DOUCEMENT SUJET, CORPS, GROUPE, INSTITUTION :
RÉFLEXIONS À PARTIR DES PRATIQUES DU PACKING JUSQU'À UNE
PSYCHOTHÉRAPIE INSTITUTIONNELLE
érès | Revue de psychothérapie psychanalytique de groupe
2011/2 - n° 57
In this paper, Pr Delion recalls the history of packing, not only coming back to the nineteenth century hydrotherapy but to ancient Egypt. That's where it's not only amazing or astonishing but really frightening since he litterally writes that the first packing was the mummification of Osiris and that packs became an institution to accompany the dead in their passage from one life to another.
Pr Delion knows quite well about against le packing.
In his paper, he also complains against the president of an association who asked for a moratorium of the practice of the packing. He says that, after the authorization of the packing by the HCSP, that president appointed one of his friends, a researcher in genetics to insite eighteen internationally renowned scientists to write against of the packing. Thus, Pr Delion wrote to the editor an answer called 'again the packing' in which he asked the 18 authors not to howl with the wolves before the results of the study are known.
Meanwhile, always according to Pr Delion, that president of that association is making use of the JAAP paper. In Pr Delion's paper, it is written : People are afraid of the violence of the words and of the actions of the association president of what he is capable of achieving by his unbearable injunctions. Forums convey ignoble and slanderous about psychiatry, and psychoanalysis is doomed to death: it has nothing to do with autistic children.
Thanks for the comment Nicole.
That's rather silly. Packing is nothing to do with psychoanalysis... well, I don't know that Freud went around wrapping people in towels at any rate.
Nicole X,
As soothing as it can be to you and many a psychoanalyst to think that- thanks to Nicole X -Neuroskeptic understand and agree that:
First, Pr Delion is a stupid
Second, psychoanalysis and Freud are not to blame for packing of autistic children.
It remains that a very little courage and information of parents of autistic children by their association could make packing of their children impossible in France.
Simply because the consent of patients (or parents of underage children) has become a fundamental liberty in France!
Since a decision on the 16/08/2002 by the French higher administrative court (Conseil d’Etat.
Following and in application of the 2000 Kouchner laws – Bernard Kouchner being the former French Doctor founder turn politician and health minister on a left-wing government in 2000-
In medical vernacular the Kouchner law on the patients ‘ rights.
NB:Sadly Nicole, it is not possible to defend your fundamental liberty of consent in an anonymous way or under any pseudo.
and the children pay the price for the cowardice of the parents
and the egocentric political agenda of some leaders of some French associations of parents of autistic children who love to meet politicians better than to go to court
-and sometimes have to sell in exclusivity their excellent pedagogic products.
It applies not only to packing but also to any prescription of drugs.
In France, any parent against packing can avoid her(his) child to suffer packing even in an emergency (référé liberté in that case)and all you need to do is write
- without a lawyer -
a demand of respect of your refusal of packing for your underage child in order to respect that fundamental liberty of consent of yours to the judges of your local administrative court
–say the Bordeaux tribunal administrative tribunal for example-
The judge in an emergency case will have to give a decision in a few days time
The administrative tribunal personal and website will provide any necessary information to write yourself the demand of respect of your civil liberty of consent-
I used that fundamental liberty of consent to protect efficiently a pro bono elderly client of mine against ludicrous drug prescriptions from gerontologists of the Paul Brousse APHP hospital in 2009.
And the family didn’t even had to go to the administrative court.
I just wrote an email to the physician in charge –a consultant gerontologist working under an academic professor authority – with CC mail to their hospital administration mentioning that CE 22/08/2002 decision.
I acted as an official 'trusted physician" loi Kouchner "medecin de confiance" and any physician can be your trusted physician.
Nb: Sadly, it is impossible to act as a "trusted physician" and get a copy of the case under a pseudo or anonymously.
PS: You are then - probably - the mother (or close parent) of an autistic child and probably the one who received an answer from T Grandin and there is nothing to be ashamed of that.
To be proud to announce to the English speaking international world a public demonstration against packing strong of 20 individuals from 16 organizations is another story…
Same kind of story as using a pseudo "caducée" and making the part of one asking questions.
Poor Freud beeing accused of wrapping his patients. That's what I understand of what Pr Delion says:
He says that packing was used in the 19th century , but that, without a reference to Freud it was usually only contention. The technique has been revised by american psychanalysts and Woodbury brought it back in the 1960 with that reference to Freud. Partial transfert happens with each caregiver, and they carry parts of the mental suffering of the child. When the caregivers have the so-called transferential meeting, a signification of their suffering can be found and they change the way they are with the child.
Packers are among caregivers but not all of them in the meeting are packers.
Nicole X
Karl Marx was an intelectual who might have been ashamed of markism had he lived enough.
American historians have show that Sigmund Freud was a fraud. As an example his famous Dora died very ill in a psychiatric hospital when the rich woman had given him a lot of money to be provided with cocaine. SF was a cocaine addict himself as it happens with many a dealers but the point is that the very expensive treatment of Dora by the good Dr Sigmund consisted more in prescribing cocaine than inquiring about a lacking phallus in that women and that what he wrote and taught n get fame and money from about Dora supposed cure y psychoanalysis is a fraud.
SF also claimed that he had not sex anymore with his not very good looking wife as a contraceptive method and went with her better looking sister to romantic travels in Italy.
This said, as one of my masters put it when you an overcome the pompous and unclear writing of the psychoanalysts'gang some have sometimes very interesting things to teach us psychopharmacologists.
The man had no morals Nicole.
It simply doesn’t make sense to pretend that the French psychoanalysts as a whole are not responsible for France being very backward and cruel in the treatment of persons with autism and their families including packing !
Anybody knows if any psychoanalyst had attack packing ?
I am not aware that any did but then I do not read them often and never without many difficulties unlike Nicole X who does propaganda for them very boldly in Nicole 28 November 2011 20:37.
Nicole X 28 November 2011 20:37 shows that she is not in the least interested in the 22/08/2002 decision of the Conseil d’Etat our highest administrative court.
An efficient and inexpensive way since lawyers are not mandatory to prevent packing-one child at a time.
She wants to promote a documentary and kill Pr Delion reputation.
When- since the parental associations against packing do nothing to obtain the parents 'right of consent - Pr Delion is a favorite of mine because he pretends to be doing a scientific clinical trial.
Then he will have at some point to give us date to examine.
I suspect that packing is being executed against vulnerable children with parents too poor to chose private care like the rich French do.
- be it at their home hiring costly ABA therapists (to use a frequent example) or in a Belgian clinic.
NB: Belgium is an easy escape for potential victims of Pr. Delion packing if he parent have knowledge and money or even only knowledge like you Nicole X.
Pr Delion is packing in Lille in the North and poor part of France who happens to be situated very close to Belgium insn’t he?
Then I hope the referees of DELION clinical trial of packing will ask for the social status of the parents
and I am expecting poor non English speaking parents
Unlike your Nicole X
First, Pr Delion is a stupid :
Pr Delion is not a stupid. A stupid person could not be able to convince an hundred of medical teams to use that practice.
To my mind he is particularly cleaver to convince his audience and he knows perfectly when he uses false arguments such as these stories of transfert or grasping reflex. He many of his papers, he invoques bloody details to convince for his technique (the same way of thinking as politicians who use a police case for promoting regressive laws).
In that last paper, he recalls Jennifer with her enucleated eye (By the way, up to now, Jennifer had an hanging lens from her hurt eye. I suppose a doctor should be able to distinguish between a hanging lens and an enucleated eye. On the other hand, it seems strange to me that the ophtalmologist let Jennifer go a few hours after she arrived with an hanging lens, so that she could be packed).
Usually, he speaks mainly of his own feelings and nightmares where he sees the children in terms of wildness and ferocity. It seems that the pack allows the caregiver to get rid of his own nightmares.
Read a part of one of his conference there :
http://bibliothequeopa.blogspot.com/2010/02/pierre-delion-lhistoire-de-nathanael.html
je voyais arriver le jour de sa séance hebdomadaire avec une terreur qui envahissait progressivement mon espace psychique professionnel puis personnel, si tant est qu’il puisse être séparé en deux sous-espaces quelque peu protégés. Après trois mois de prise en charge, je me réveillais à plusieurs reprises la nuit, en proie à une frayeur depuis longtemps disparue de mes expériences nocturnes, couvert de sueur, le visage de Nathanaël devant moi, les yeux comme des dents perforantes et les dents comme des becs venimeux.
Second, psychoanalysis and Freud are not to blame for packing of autistic children.
I have only writen what I understood in Pr Delion's paper.
This is the original :
Quelque temps plus tard, cette technique est utilisée par des aliénistes du XIXe siècle pour apaiser les agitations des malades mentaux, mais pratiquée sans la référence freudienne – et pour cause –, elle ne devient, dans la plupart des cas, ni plus ni moins qu’une contention. La technique revisitée par les psychanalystes américains sera alors une manière d’accompagner les catatonies et autres éléments cliniques de la dissociation schizophrénique. Woodbury, en provenance de Chesnut Lodge où il travaille avec Searles, Harry Stack Sullivan et Frieda Fromm Reichmann, rapporte la technique à Paris dans le XIIIe arrondissement et en Suisse dans les années soixante, comprise désormais dans une perspective freudienne.
Nicole X
You seem to me now an energetic anonymous activist (oxymoron) for the boss of ‘Vaincre l’ Autism” formerly “Lea pour Samy”
You represent a caricature of a sadly very French association looking to make friend with politicians and before all not making enemies of the potent French psychoanalysts lobby at any cost.
1)How do you dare do that reading what you translated of PR DELION prosein your comments to NS post since
2)Since you dare dissociate French psychoanalysts and packing.
Do you know even only one French psychoanalyst having written or speak publicly against packing?
This question is worth repeating until the Nicole X alias caducei pseudo gives us an answer.
I am not aware of any French one.
3)Pr Delion cannot be very bright writing what he writes and I take him for a Freud religion bigot of no remarkable intellect power for not thinking him delusional and in charge of disabled vulnerable children.
Because I am not alone to wait for his results and discussion!
I am not a genius and homeopathy seems to me a very useful tool sometimes for a physician but I knew when to stop writing the best and soundest protocol to study clinical efficacy of homeopathy in orthopedic surgery against the world scientific community – in Pr Claude Chastang dept in hospital St Louis in 1998 not my kitchen mind you!
with a very supportive boss that thought I should be allowed to do research although he would have preferred me to do research in psychiatry.
and I am not a coward like you.
Packing had been inflicted to vulnerable autistic children whose mothers are accused of being by their lack of love responsible for autism in the child for so much time that if this was giving stricking results -like Flemming with his mold product against strepto infection deseases-
It would be known by now and Pr DELION needs nothing less than that to advocate sadistic procedure in XXI century.
NB:I learnt that your heart is not bleeding for the children suffering cruel packing but luckily you are an exception.
I learnt that since you are not in the least interested in prohibiting packing a child at a time using the Dr Bernard KOUCHNER laws on the patient’s rights and the status of fundamental liberty of consent.
Dear Ivana
Beleive what you want of me, I do not mind. I will not tell if your guesses are false or true. You are trolling. I am realising that carring a discussion with you can only pollute Neuroskeptic's blog and I will not answer anymore to you if you do not change your behaviour.
You said :
1)How do you dare do that reading what you translated of PR DELION prosein your comments to NS post since
2)Since you dare dissociate French psychoanalysts and packing.
I do not dissociate french psychoanalysis from packing : at the contrary I just above said that Pr Delions says that packing has been revised by psychoanalysis. This definitely link packing with psychoanalysis. You certainly misunderstood what I wanted to say
Do you know even only one French psychoanalyst having written or speak publicly against packing?
No I do not and I am sure none of them would.
3)Pr Delion cannot be very bright writing what he writes and I take him for a Freud religion bigot of no remarkable intellect power for not thinking him delusional and in charge of disabled vulnerable children.
Because I am not alone to wait for his results and discussion!
I agree that his story of grasping reflex is stupid, and the story of the eye with the hanging lens is not beleivable. More, Pr Delion is not consistent with himself, always changing the temperature. He also says that he had measured the temperature and that the heating is rapid, meanwhile, he can also say that heating is progressive. He gives no indication on the experimental conditions for the temperature measurement.
The child endures a thermal shock, then, he has to give a lot of energy to heat about 2kg of water from 15°C to 35°C, that is almost as much energy as to lift 17kg to an height of 1000m. How can he produce heat while he cannot move? How can he breath properly? Do children lack of oxygen? Is there a loss concienceness? On the other hand, I suspect that the end of the pack is not far from being sensory deprivation. Pr Delion has never say a word about these questions.
It's a technique of regression which is clearly expressed when Pr Delion says that the packing is a therapeutic area where the child can play and play again the anguishes.
If he had results, in more than 20 years of practice, he would have been stupid not to publish them.
Meanwhile, he managed to promote his technique, and here, that's the point where I say he is talented. (I admit other psychianalysts helped him)
There is a lot of mysticism in him : When, in his last paper, in cairn info, he says that packs will become an institution to accompany the dead in their passage from one life to another, he clearly assimilates the packing to a funeral ceremony. Very strange for a doctor. Is it a cult of mummies in which Pr Delion is the great priest and which help him to deal with his own anguishes? I do not know.
Neuroskeptic
In her 3 12 2011 comment Nicole X made a confusion between what I wrote and her answers.
I am no friend of Pr Delion and very much afraid of bias that can make his clinical trials look in favor of packing.
But, he is a French academic chief of service and Ivana Fulli is my real name.
I am not a coward and not shy to denounce what I can prove but I cannot endorse nicole X very grave accusations:
Nicole X and not Dr Fulli wrote :
"I agree that his story of grasping reflex is stupid, and the story of the eye with the hanging lens is not beleivable. More, Pr Delion is not consistent with himself, always changing the temperature. He also says that he had measured the temperature and that the heating is rapid, meanwhile, he can also say that heating is progressive. He gives no indication on the experimental conditions for the temperature measurement.
The child endures a thermal shock, then, he has to give a lot of energy to heat about 2kg of water from 15°C to 35°C, that is almost as much energy as to lift 17kg to an height of 1000m. How can he produce heat while he cannot move? How can he breath properly? Do children lack of oxygen? Is there a loss concienceness? On the other hand, I suspect that the end of the pack is not far from being sensory deprivation."
and Nicole X not ivana Fulli wrote:
"There is a lot of mysticism in him : When, in his last paper, in cairn info, he says that packs will become an institution to accompany the dead in their passage from one life to another, he clearly assimilates the packing to a funeral ceremony. Very strange for a doctor. Is it a cult of mummies in which Pr Delion is the great priest and which help him to deal with his own anguishes? I do not know."
Pr Delion is a real name and a real French academic and I have enough in my plate without endorsing claim of a rather messy methodology and dubious motives for packing.
On the contrary, what I fear is that Pr Delion has a very sound methodology and I know for sure people I trust who have met him and find him looking as an academic as any of his colleagues quietly convinced that packing do good and prepare to follow good scientific standards.
Contrary to T Grandin and Nicole X I fear that the pressure applied might be beneficial even without the control of the autistic person treated.
Autism research has now a study running about the beneficial effect of weighted blackets and I hope with all my heart that it will be published before pr Delion packing study.
I sincerely do not believe Nicole X suggestion that Pr Delion might be suffering from any psychological strain or fascination with death.
I was made to believe the contrary from a person I trust and that person has been to Lille to discuss with Pr Delion his clinical research on packing.
Dearest Nicole X
I learnt my lesson and will not treat you without the respect you deserve, and I am sure you will answer to very respectful demands of mine:
1) How it is that intensive care doctors spend energy and public money to put and maintain the body of non moving persons in hypothermia in the hope of making those clients escape the terrible consequences of some medical cardiac accidents for example ?
I ask you because you wrote that a child enduring packing cannot produce heat because he do not move and because I have lived for 33 years with a professor of intensive care who I am still married with although living separately since 2008. It is not a disrespectful question at all.
You wrote 3 12 11:
"(...)The child endures a thermal shock, then, he has to give a lot of energy to heat about 2kg of water from 15°C to 35°C, that is almost as much energy as to lift 17kg to an height of 1000m. How can he produce heat while he cannot move?(...)"
2) What does it means that I am trolling in your:
"Dear Ivana (...)You are trolling. I am realising that carring a discussion with you can only pollute Neuroskeptic's blog and I will not answer anymore to you if you do not change your behaviour."?
NB: My English is not as good as yours, I am just an old adult posychiatrist and my question is respectful enough since I just ask about a description of yours of my behavior.
I am sure it is very respectful of you and you were not insulting me but a meaning of trolling-I ignore obviously- will be of comfort to me.
Dearest Nicole X,former caducei in French phonetics
I am desperatly waiting for your answers to my two deferent and respectfully worded questions.
Give me light Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.
I know for sure that psychoanalysis is a sect or a religion or whatever but not a science
I believe that although the psychoanalytic speaking and writing should be allowed freely,
people writing silly like Pr Delion –even if you made cuts with a partisan mind in the writing you offered on NS blog - should not be an academic in the XXI century.
I do not believe in lack of penis in women and fear for losing it in a vagina for men plus forgotten early traumas –like incest you have forgotten or seeing your parents make love – will explain any form of psychiatric pathology
I find cruel and unjustified to accuse mothers of being responsible of their children schizophrenia for contradictory feelings or of their children autism for a lack of love.
Still I respect some psychoanalysts of my personal knowledge for the good work they do in short term psychodynamic psychotherapy and I believe in the uncoinscious and in "repetition" an,d "projection" mecchanisms for being a nice advances in psychology.
And I know of aspies complaining about ABA therapist being not very smart and not respectful of their intelligence and ABA not being beneficial after a time for aspies if any beneficial at all.
I met arrogant and unempathy and not very smart looking ABA therapists and empathic and very clever psychoanalysts at the Maudsley in London GB and in Canada.
Some behavioral therapists are looking -to my mind- every inch the paternalistic and ego dystrophic teachers some aspies suffer at school when other are blesses with inspiring teachers.
My point is that Pr Delion write silly even for a psychoanalyst but seemed –to persons I know and trust and who hate psychoanalysis - a very nice guy sincerely thinking packing is a help for very violent self-harming kids under his care-
Plus the minister of health will not have maintain that study on packing without a sound methodology with all the fuss the presidenbt you lobby for had made.
I want packing to be scrutinized without simplistic and defamatory stupid attacks for the political benefit of the president of “Vaincre l’Autisme” formerly” Lea pour Samy”.
That man is respectable but when I spoke with him he couldn’t speak English – I strongly encouraged him to learn- and at the meeting I was kindly invited I was silenced after I attacked the psychoanalysis theories.
Only a Swiss lady doing research with noisy machines admitted I had a point but I could not speak anymore.
And the new association of his you are promoting presentlky did not answer my asking some support for being able to have the French medical Gestapo accepting English spoken meetings and costly training (200 pounds for teaching on Asperger doagnostic by Dr Tom Berney and pr Perry Burka excellent teaching at the RPS 500 pounds to ARC for teaching to use the PR Baron-Cohen scale to diagnose Asperger with a clinic of his receiving 50 clients a year for examples).
Dearest Nicole,
I admit that as an adult psychiatrist involved in a legal fight in order to help very high IQ aspies and high functioning autistic persons according to the non-French scientific and clients and family current knowledge’s I knew nothing of the Pr Delion clients 3 years ago.
Of course I want to know if the children packed could not have benefit for an ABA training or whatever for preventing self-harm behavior -but even ABA has his limitations contrary to the French simplistic activists who claim it is a cure for everyone autistic child-attracting some aspies association severe critics.
But I cannot tell for sure that packing is more cruel that a regimen of antispychotics since I know how cruel and not a cure for sure antipsychotic medication in autism can be- when no schizophrenia is associated.
NB: You have the right to tell and write whatever you fancy - to my mind- a devoted activist for the president of "Vaincre l'Autism" and the third name he found for that association – But not for French laws and I can tell you that I read NS blog from France those days.
Being not a doctor nor family for an autistic person, you might not have realized how terrible it is to see a non speaking child self-harm or attack the mother or a nurse or helper.
Or what it is for a mother to be sexually fancied by a mentally retarded autistic son living at home-
I personally heard that kind of testimony many times since I involved myself in knowing a little more about low IQ autistic persons and child autism -motivated mostly by the DSM 5 ludicrous proposals to suppress Asperger with the approval of so many ambitious academic like Dr Bishop from Oxford.
I do not want to treat children and I am not competent to do so-very often the American child psychiatrists are pediatrician also and I find that an excellent thing.
I am far from pretending to be a competent adult psychiatrist for low IQ : to my shame, I learned at the Manchester 2011 NAS professional conference that you need a lot of dedication and money to keep home an adult autistic son who fancy you sexually. I never thought of that practical problem.
I know now that if you are rich enough your autistic child will have more chances to sleep under a fancy weighted blankets (some costing 300 pounds for a model with little balls in it Quilt like sewing I was shown in St Andrews Northampton hospital) or wear weighted clothes to sooth him gently .
I welcome the Autism Research current clinical trial on those costly items also for the cost to the families or public money.
Mainly, though to established if packing could not be done with dry sheet at room temperature and not 35 degre centigrades.
NB: unlike yours - apparently according to yours writing of 3 12 11 -my bed clothes do not need 35 centigrades for me to enter my bed confortably.
An answer to the two questions :
A troll is a word of the internet slang : it is someone who post provocative messages on a forum in order to obtain emotionnal and angry answers.
I did not say that the child cannot produce heat because he does not move. I said ; How can he produce heat while he cannot move? Which can be translated by Comment peut-t-il produire de la chaleur alors qu'il ne peut pas bouger? It was a question to which the litterature on packing does not answer. It's a misunderstanding.
I should have asked : How can they produce enough heat to heat the pack while they cannot move?
J'aurais du demander : comment peuvent-t-ils fournir suffisament de chaleur pour réchauffer le pack alors qu'ils ne peuvent pas bouger ? Other questions are also questions to which the litterature about packing does not give any answer : How can they breath properly? Do children lack of oxygen? Is there a loss concienceness?
Thank you so much for your precious answers dearest Nicole X
"A troll is a word of the internet slang : it is someone who post provocative messages on a forum in order to obtain emotionnal and angry answers."
I was relieved when you wrote that you are not a physician and have not an autistic person in your family.
I indeed challenged you ruthlessly by provocative messages but it was from a well meaning and very busy poor adult psychiatrist competent for the world outside the French psychoanalytic standards for psychiatrists.
My aim was just to understand a little better your rich personnality and save the honor of French physicians and autisitc person family members who know how difficult a self-harm child can be for the family and the health professionals alike.
Unless the family- it happens sadly- want the child out of their home permanently and abuse the health professionnals in charge in order not to feel guilty with a classical projection mecchanism.
May I suggest kindly and respectfully that you do some pro bono work to help a poor family havind an autistic child who self-harm at home in order to understand better the problems of the condition since you are so motivated against packing and Pr Delion?
I am sure I can via Sesame autistm for example ding you a family where a poor mother who fight to keep at home a difficult self-harm child will be happy to have you in the city you live event 2 hours a month to help her go and cut her hair or whatever.
2) Your second answer:
"I did not say that the child cannot produce heat because he does not move. I said ; How can he produce heat while he cannot move? (...)It was a question to which the litterature on packing does not answer. It's a misunderstanding.
I should have asked : How can they produce enough heat to heat the pack while they cannot move?"
The answer is easy because they are alive they produce heat and the packers say that they put above the cold humid sheets warmed blankets.
NB: unlike yours - apparently according to yours writing of 3 12 11 -my bed clothes do not need 35 centigrades for me to enter my bed confortably
Good question indeed for me to start with calorimetry. Excuse me, I am slow, it's difficult for me to answer rapidly.
This is true for everybody. Because clothes are dry and contain plenty of air which is a good thermal insulator.
If it's cold but dry, when we enter our bed, we enclose a small volume of air which is heated in a few minutes by our own production of heat. We also heat rapidly a thin internal slice of the blanket (and mattress). And because the blanket is thermal insulator, the heat takes a long time to cross it, thus it has a tendancy to stay by the sleeping person. If the blanket is really too much an insulator, we are too hot and it is necessary to move in order to renew the air volume with colder air and cool the inner parts of the blanket.
We does not feels the temperature of an object when we touch it. One only feels is the flux of calories accross the skin which depends not only on the temperature of the object, but on the thermical contact between the skin and the object and on the object thermal conductivity. Finally, if you touch it for a longer time, thermal capacity of the object has to be taken into account.
As an example, when the weather is cold and dry, a piece of wood or a piece of iron which have been left outside are both at the same temperature but when one touch the piece of wood, he does not fell the cold while one feels it when touching the piece of iron. The reason is that wood is a thermal insulator, when one touch it, he heat a very thin slice of the wood and the heat stay there, thus, rapidely stoping the heat flux between the hand and the wood. At the contrary, iron is a conductor, when one touch it, he also heat a slice of the material, but the heat rapidly goes away and one have to carry on giving heat to heat the part of the material you touch. In that case, the flux of heat is continuous and you feel the cold.
Dear Dr Ivana
It's already been debated before..
http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/01/packing-autistic-kids-french-scandal.html
Nicole,
You don't treat people with science, you treat them with respect. A reminder:
'..it is illegal for an adult to touch any portion of a child's body with a "lewd and lascivious" intent. Usually, consent is not a matter of consideration, and is not available as a defense to a charge of child molestation. Even in cases where it can be proven that the minor victim was a willing participant, a sex act or improper touching is still a crime because children cannot legally consent to anything. Criminal penalties are severe for those convicted of child molestation.'
Another reminder:
'... Child abuse in cults is common, and children are often cults' most devastating casualties. Of the 912 People's Temple members who died in Jonestown, Guyana in 1978, 276 were children. Of more than 80 who died at Waco, 25 were children. Even children not harmed physically rarely receive formal education or develop correctly on emotional, social, and cognitive levels. ...'
Hiding behind 'science walls' is not going to protect Pr Delion from public outrage. By petitioning, his colleagues did him a favour. Should this practice be noticed by mainstream folks, I assure you the dude will get the slammer.
Dearest Nicole X,
6 12 11 you wrote:
"How can he produce heat while he cannot move? (...) It was a question to which the litterature on packing does not answer."
I was left for the end a little surprise for you:
Neuroskeptic himself had written in that post very post :
"The individual is wrapped with blankets to help the body warm up"
PS: I was looking to understand much from you but not basic notion of physic.
My father was a great man but not a harsh educucator and he put me in a plane from Rome where I was happily studying medecine at La Sapienza university when the leftist were not having fascinating meetings.
The plane ended to Paris and I had to go back to first year of study and pass a very difficult end of first year concorse (concours de PCEM1) with physics and chemistry not being there for fun). I could have been a professor rang B of pharmacology because I have a master plus two years and practical work done partly in oxford (DERBH Diploma study and research in human biology option pharmacology mention neuropsychopharmacology).
Dearest Nicole X,
you wrote:
"(...) if you touch it for a longer time, thermal capacity of the object has to be taken into account.(...)"
As a physician it is not my duty not to teach you about physics or what is known about human physiology (temperature regulation, sensitory receptors for heat etc..) but I9 have to let you know that you should not put into contact with your skin anything being at a very high temperature even for a very short time:
You will get third degre burns.
No kidding.
I agree with omg. It is to let it know what's happening that I am posting here.
About mysticism, here is what Pr Delion says about ancient Egypt and packing in his last paper :
http://www.cairn.info/resume.php?ID_ARTICLE=RPPG_057_0047
Revue de psychothérapie psychanalytique de groupe
2011/2 (n° 57) (traduction is bulk from google translate and I avoid to comment)
The technique of packing is as old as the world, and Osiris, in Egyptian cosmogony, would have even been the first beneficiary. After being killed once by his brother Seth, Osiris is restored to life by the breath of his sister wife, Isis. But Seth is regret that in turn become a king, kill him a second time and
cut into pieces, spreading in the provinces of Egypt. Isis, in her second quest, found all the pieces except one, the phallus, which, thrown into the Nile and eaten by fish, fails on the edges of Judea to be reincarnated centuries later, in
Jesus Christos Theou Iésos Oster Sauter, initial ICTEOS, fish, symbol of the Christian son of God. Isis, having affixed to each other without knowing how to hold together, on the advice his little brother, Horus Horacthy himself advised by Anubis, will surround his body in bandages. Thus was produced by this small group the first mummification. And the first packing. Already, about a fragmented is in question and the packing is the answer reported by the myth to give him eternal life. This will become an institution practice packs to accompany the dead in their passage from one life to another.
the original is :
La technique du packing est vieille comme le monde, et Osiris, dans la cosmogonie égyptienne, en aurait même été le premier bénéficiaire. Après avoir été tué une première fois par son frère Seth, Osiris est rendu à la vie par le souffle de sa soeur épouse, Isis. Mais Seth, se désolant de ne pouvoir devenir roi à son tour, le tue une seconde fois et le découpe en morceaux, les répandant dans les provinces de l’Égypte. Isis, dans sa deuxième quête, retrouve tous les morceaux, sauf un, le phallus, qui, jeté dans le Nil et dévoré par les poissons, échoue sur les bords de la Judée pour se réincarner quelques siècles plus tard, en Jésus, Iésos Christos Theou Oster Sauter, initiales d’ICTEOS, le poisson, symbole du fils du Dieu Chrétien. Isis, les ayant apposés les uns aux autres sans savoir comment les faire tenir ensemble, sur les conseils de son petit frère, Horus Horacthy, lui-même conseillé par Anubis, va entourer son corps de bandelettes. Ainsi fut réalisée par ce petit groupe la première momification. Et le premier packing. Déjà, un sujet morcelé est en question et le packing constitue la réponse rapportée par le mythe pour lui procurer la vie éternelle. Cela va devenir une institution de pratiquer les packs pour accompagner les morts au cours de leur passage d’une vie à l’autre.
Dearest Nicole X,
I was not trolling!
You appear in danger of third degree burns who can be fatal -and the children under your care also- if you really believe
what you wrote
7 December 2011 14:10
"(...) if you touch it for a longer time, thermal capacity of the object has to be taken into account.(...)"I was not trolling!
You will really get third degre burns if you put your skin - or anybody else skin -in contact with a very hot object one can easily find in any kitchen.
Even for the shortest of time it will take your non-cortical reflex to act on the useful muscles.
Not only you cannot trust your brain but your under-corticaol
I am glad you admit not being a French physician when you wrote your nice peace on "calorimetry" and I hope you do not teach physics.
Ivana said :
I have to let you know that you should not put into contact with your skin anything being at a very high temperature even for a very short time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_capacity
Heat capacity (usually denoted by a capital C, often with subscripts), or thermal capacity, is the measurable physical quantity that characterizes the amount of heat required to change a substance's temperature by a given amount. In the International System of Units (SI), heat capacity is expressed in units of joule(s) (J) per kelvin (K).
I do not see the relationship between burning oneself and thermal capacity.
The caracteristic of a good quality blanket is to be a thermal insulator, it contains a lot of air which is kept between the fibers. Thus, it's thermal capacity is rather small.
A device which is hot but have a small thermal capacity can give only little heat.
Thus I cannot accept the simplistic explanation of the hot blanket.
A more coherent explanation is that the blanket insulates the child and the packing but heat little by itself. The child heats the packing. Once it's temperature is larger than ambiant temperature, the blanket avoids the cooling of the packing which at the end of the pack, is at a temperature closed to normal body temperature. (according to Neuropsychiatrie de l’enfance et de l’adolescence 57 (2009) 529–534). It is because of that paper that I choose 35°C in my small calculation.
You will think that I spend much time with details. I admit.
In an other paper, the blanket is not cited, warming is said to come from vasodilatation
PsychoMédia, n°29, mai-juin 2011, p. 61-65
Here, Pr Delion does not speak of the hot blanket. He says that heat comes from vasodilatation. That is, it's the child who produces the heat. :
Vascularization becomes much more significant vasodilatation and warming occurs, so that was cool on the skin warms gradually. [..] There is a global mechanism that makes that child after one hour, when developing the packing, wrapping is usually very hot
"La vascularisation devient beaucoup plus importante par vasodilatation et le réchauffement se produit de façon à ce qui était froid sur la peau se réchauffe progressivement. [..] Il y a un mécanisme de réchauffement qui fasse que cet enfant au bout d'une heure, quand on développe le packing, l'enveloppement est en général très chaud ".
In that last paper, it is said that final temperature is closed to body temperature
Neuropsychiatrie de l’enfance et de l’adolescence 57 (2009) 529–534
Here, the blanket only ease the heating, In that paper, it is said :
Towels are covered with a draw sheet and two blankets to facilitate warming of the child. These tissues of a temperature of 10 to 15 ◦ C in early trading warms quickly to around body temperature until the end of the session.
Les serviettes sont recouvertes d’une alaise et de deux couvertures pour faciliter le réchauffement de l’enfant. Ces tissus d’une température proche de 10 à 15 ◦ C en début de séance se réchauffent très rapidement pour avoisiner la température du corps jusqu’à la fin de la séance.
Dearest Nicole,
I am really sincerely thankfull of your answer and also of your motivation against the psychoanalysts treatment of autism.
still after having read youe last comment I am glad that you found nothing in the "litterature about packing according to your 6 December 2011 12:54
"I should have asked : How can they produce enough heat to heat the pack while they cannot move?
(...)? Other questions are also questions to which the litterature about packing does not give any answer : How can they breath properly? Do children lack of oxygen? Is there a loss concienceness?
Dearest Nicole X,
It seems to me that we can conclude that -as unacceptable as pseudosneuroscientific as the French psychoanalysts in charge of autistic children can be - neither proper nor sensible to invent a critic based on false assumptions like yours : How can a child produce heat underpacking or even how can a child produce enough heat?
The packers could easily answer those critics.
Remember that Pr Delion has been very clever or had good advisors in choosing to pack only severely autisitic children with self-harm behaviour- a condition for which a father of an autist and psychiatrist in charge of a day hospital for autistic persons told me that even the best parents beg for antipsychotic prescriptions...
Also Temple Grandin is very rich from best-seller books and Conferences and rightly so but every autistic person is different unfortunatly and many autistic children seem to be soothed by deep pressure even when their parents apply it after spending a fortune in weighted blankets.
Attack Pr Delion as much as you want Dear Nicole but not in a simplisistic way too easy to answer.
NB: Your are a citizen and a letter to your MP might be of help and I am not kidding.
You ask your MP to put a question to our new health minister about packing and psychoanalytic pseudo scinece litterature of Pr Delion. It is the holiday seasons and you can sent the Pr Delion book to your MP as a gift or the passages you translate for NS.
be able to discuss it in parlement.according to the advice of an MP, but a British one.
This will be my last comment and I hope you read it.
For me, the main source of heat is the child himself.
It's consistent with the hypothesis of a progressive heating which last between half an hour and one hour.
Meanwhile, without any data on the blanket quality, on the exact temperature and the quantity of cold water,it's useless to carry on with suppositions.
He never said if the children lack of oxygen.
Dearest Nicole X,
I am sorry but -to my mind -your way of attacking Pr Delion with badly thought critics and simplistic defamation of the man- is a recipe for disater if his clinical trial is a success.And I bet it will be one unfortunatly.
For several reasons you will not understand, Pr Delion might publish positive results and it will be a disater for phydicians like I who want to help autistic persons and family with the current medical knowledge and not the psychoanalytic methods.
You found a good cause if you choose to be part of letting the world know about the idiotic writing of a French academic who pretends to make neuroscience discoveries back up psychoanalysis and packing in a very silly way -according to your extracts.
To be efficient you cannot pretend that a packed children may lack oxygen because of a cold body temperature no matter how fresh your notions of physics from school are up to date.
Idem for defamatory suggestions about any perverse corpse or death fascination of Pr Delion.
Idem for ignoring that nobody can lightly leave alone a child who self-arm and the alternatives physical restraints and physical violence (bruno Bettelheim has been accused of beating some children and i heard many accounbts of staff beating children even in meetings)
or high doses of antispychotic are not pleasant in France where psychoanalysts are allowed to reign in pedopsychiatry.
Remenber also that the children are from Lille a country where the sea water is very cold and children and adults go into it every summer for pleasure at the beaches.
Believe it or not I saw people letting their children go into the Ocean In cap ferret at March!!!!!!!!!!!! In Roma the police will take the children from your authoruty for that: I saw the children out in a blueish skin color.I am not making that up!
But the French parents do it with social approbation: the social asumption is that it will make the children stronger like some public schools beatings of the children and horrendous food in England.
NB: none of my adult Roman family members has ever come twice to my husband's family villa in Cap Ferret and my own sister never again send me her son to go there on holidays after she had tasted the waters there herself.
Because my adult family members had not had the courage to look cowardly Italian and they bathed every day in August or july with sometimes 13 centigrade ocean waters.One clever cousin discovered after such a day that in Arles was a painting exhibit he could not miss for the love of the ocean water and left us immediatly with a safe 5 days to reach Arles from Cap Ferret.
When your were born in Roma -and an average person not suffering from a subtype of depression symptoms that desappear in cold water - the Bassin d'Arcachon in summer is just very worth looking at it or sailing on it to go and fetch shellfish to make pasta.
In summary and I cannot read you anymore for neuroskeptic's sake (I am not his kind of usaual admiror and commentator)
Packing autistic persons -to my mind- might get results but at too high a price and weighted blankets might do the same good plus nice ABA with eatable rewards instead of the aversion from packing.
To caricature what I suspect as another bias after the deep pressure effect: You do self-harm you get packed. If you look at me and speak even a little I will stop packing you.
With packing being done in France - be it only because the many French associations of parents of autistic children are not willing to use their rights to oppose any treatment (good Dr Beranrd Koucner 's laws on the right of the patients- it is hard to be againbst a clinical trial done by Pr Delion in my opinion.
Plus in Dr Delion clinical studies parents had given informed consentI do not think that he used only orphans or children for which a judge has denied legal authority to the parents.
Dear Nicole,
Sorry to come back but yersterday Pr Delion gave an interview to " Le Quotidien du Medecin" Numéro: 9057 du 12 12 2011
Pr Delion take a courageous stance by opposing the education minister Luc Chatel decision that every pre-school child will be screened for antisocial behavior and the positive cases registered by the school administration.
NB: I am not for packing and I am no friend of psychoanalysis but we have to admit that Pr Pierre Delion is a much more dangerous adversary that you make him appears- as I was told by persons I trust.
My command of English is far from being as good as yours and my translation of Pr Delion prose is much more amateurish than yours
but the wording of Pr P Delion
–even considering it was an interview and not a written text of his-
do not suggest to my mind -a great intellectual.
What can you expect from a man thinking that neurosciences are backing up psychoanalysis and write the excerpts you gave us to read in yours comments?
Still he looked a very brave and sincere man
(opposing the president Sarkosy demagogic desire to put the mentally ill as dangerous for society with a need to control all of them and as often as possible in closed quarters for the offenders).
More importantly: He asked for the respect of the parent’s authority.
See my point about the parents refusing packing?
Here my honest but amateurish translation in English followed by the French original from the “Q d M” Journal edition of yesterday:
"(…)I have a very different philosophy of the work, admit P D. Why is it be impossible that the children with psychological problems( positive symptoms but also negative ones like mutism for example)continue to be noticed by the school teachers. But after that instead of signaling the school hierarchy, you have to speak with the parents and find solutions(...)"
«(…) J’ai une philosophie très différente du travail, reconnaît Pierre Delion. Pourquoi ne pas continuer à faire en sorte que les enfants qui présentent des troubles psychiques (des troubles en plus, mais aussi en moins, comme le mutisme, par exemple) puissent être repérés par leurs instituteurs, préalablement formés. Mais ensuite, plutôt que d’en référer à leur hiérarchie, il faut en parler d’abord avec les parents et trouver des solutions. (…)»
My point still is that defamatory attacks against Pr Delion and simplistic attacks on packing is a recipe for disaster if your aim is to help autistic persons and their family to escape the psychoanalysts view and treatment of autism in France.
Dearest Nicole,
The New York Times beats anytime French Journalists when it comes to investigation. Plus, they write in English.
Here a link to put to perspective simplisitc attacks of pr Pierre Delion and packing.
In order to be efficient, the ostrich posture is to be avoided.
NB: Once again, I am not friend of Pr Delion and packing. Still at the 2010 Catania wonderful and comprehensive meeting of Autism Europe, I protested when a team of geneticists researchers from Pavia (Italy)suggested that their very modest findings aboput dopaminergic receptors genetic in autism might be a reason to prescribe antipsychotics to autistic persons.
Please not that the journalist explain that non psychiatric qualified doctors are responsable for crazy antipsychotic prescriptions.
"Developmentally Disabled in New York Are Getting Too Many Antipsychotics
Many group-home residents with mental retardation are receiving psychotropic medications that may be doing far more harm than good."
By Maia Szalavitz | @maiasz | December 24, 2011
Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/24/nyt-developmentally-disabled-in-new-york-are-getting-too-many-antipsychotics/#ixzz1hv00FTWW
http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/24/nyt-developmentally-disabled-in-new-york-are-getting-too-many-antipsychotics/?xid=healthland-daily
Here the original article from the New York Times-worth reading for those with a little more time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/nyregion/potent-pills-few-rules-in-states-treatment-of-the-disabled.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all
NB: I am afraid that in France the psychoanalysts child psychiatrists are even worst than GPs when it comes to prescrption of very potent and rich in side-effects drugs- still precious in some cases-
Why do you say I cannot make the ostrich? I had given up, you had get rid of me and now, I am obliged to answer and you will again find my answer is stupid.
So, in any case, you will find me guilty.
I admit that
I should not have say that Pr Delion changes the material conditions of the pack but that the litterature gives contradictory datas.
I should have given the bulk data such as Pr Delion assimilates packing to mommification but I should not have let an open question about the packing beeing a way for the care givers to get rid of their own nightmares.
Also Pr Delion may sincerely beleive his technique is good for children.
The JAAP letter is the main and certainly the unique arguement to stop that practice. My diversion on temperature is not simplistic. It's just a detail which only shows that there is a lack of rigor. Lack of rigor is not a crime. Sorry for my attachment to details.
Did you write your last posts because it is said that the packing therapy is a part of therapeutic approach for children and adolescents with autistic disorder, especially in the case of self-injurious behaviour, and who do not respond to usual psychotropic drugs or who cannot tolerate them? (in the Goeb & al paper)
Do you fear that packing can be replaced by drugs?
There are enough parents who complain about drugs for I understood drugs are not a better solution.
For me it's the method of arguing : put in the head of the reader that other solutions have failed. However, it is never said that packing is used on children for which educational methods have been tried without success.
The problem is that packing is not prescribed only for self injuring children. To illustrate, look at the two children who are in the TV5 documentary are they self injuring ? I doubt. Manon is able to say no, I don't want. Why don't they leave her alone? Another documentary is the one of L'express aux mosaiques à Lille, the child who has been choosen does not seem to be self injuring too.
On that point, the HCSP report gives contradictory datas :
page11, one can find that prescription are generaly limited to dramatic situations: self-mutilation (this is the main prescription), clastic crises with aggression, extreme agitation or, conversely, catatonia
" les indications sont généralement limitées à des situations dramatiques : automutilation (c’est l’indication prioritaire), crises clastiques avec agressivité, agitation extrême ou, à l’inverse, catatonie ".
while in the next paragraph : In several experiments reported, children who benefit from the packing are educated in mainstream schools (nursery classes mainly)
: "Dans plusieurs expériences rapportées, les enfants qui bénéficient du packing sont scolarisés en école ordinaire (classes maternelles principalement)".
The question is then , Is it reasonnable to send to school children who are in a such dramatic situation as the ones described above?
Nicole 30 December 2011 10:24
Thank you for asking:
" The question is then , Is it reasonnable to send to school children who are in a such dramatic situation as the ones described above?"
I am glad that you recognize at last that those children are difficult to treat
(massive dosage of antipsychotics alternative to packing in backward France but also elsewhere)
Thanks Nicole
But, as much as I approve NS for this post -except the title where neuropsychoanalysis is wanted- and as much as I approve your translation efforts on the ludicrous pseudoscience: the French neuropsychoanalysis;
I pray you to stop insuanating that the children might suffer hypothermia
I find packing disgusting because of the ignorance of simple deep pressure soothing effect on autistic children -and I do not care about one autisitc superstar thinks about it-
it is also a rare and disgusting violence because of the ignorance of the other sensory problems and the soothing effect of solitude (in a safe and adapted room of course)erc...
PS:As a psychiatrist who trained in asperger mostly by paying for herself teaching abroad and doing pro bono in france, I have much to answer but the boss do not want us to go off topic and the chief of his house of commons has answer that beautifully in public in June 2011: no fanaticism about putting every autistic child in mainstream schools, in GB some parents built schools for severly autisitc children- not only rich ones make and some aspies want homeschooling (some very bright children too).
Hello and happy new year.
I did not speak of hypothermia but of thermal choc.
To my knowledge no opponent of packing complained about hypothermia.
It's the HCSP report who insists on the fact that there is no hypothermia.
Happy new year Nicole,
The important point is that you realized that Pr Delion is dealing with very difficult children.
And that one should be careful not to make him appears like an insane person since the alternative would be physical harm by staff and/or antipsychotics drugs no goof fot learning new things,
And you did since you wrote:
"The question is then , Is it reasonnable to send to school children who are in a such dramatic situation as the ones described above?"
Sincere congratulations and thanks you for that.
Thanks you for exposing the stupidity of some neuropsychonalysis writing by Pr DERION-The actual subject of that post of NS.
If in addition, you were able to make the effort to try and understand that
may be Pr Delion is rightly convinced that packing is useful because of bias like:
1) the deep pressure soothing effect in autisditc persons -and Temple Grandin is just wrong on her point that the pressure has to be applied by the person. She is just one autistic person and a remarquable human being but autisms make autistic persons very different in average from Temple Grandin.
2) plus the possible aversive "therapy effect" of a very unpleasant practice with overstimulation by silly psychoanbalysts talking their trade during packing.
It will be great.
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