This is a tough one so bear with me.
Gueorguieva, Mallinckrodt and Krystal re-analysed the data from a number of trials of duloxetine (Cymbalta) vs placebo. Most of the trials also had another antidepressant (an SSRI) as well. And the SSRIs and duloxetine seemed to be indistinguishable so from now on I'll just call it antidepressants vs. placebo as the authors did.
People on placebo got, on average, moderately better over 8 weeks.
People on antidepressants fell into two classes. The largest class got, on average, a lot better. But about 25% did poorly, staying just as depressed as before. This "nonresponder" group did much worse than the placebo group - again on average. Here you can see the mean "trajectories" of depression symptoms (HAMD scores) in the three groups:
This raises the scary possibility that while antidepressants are helping some people, they're harming others. But hang on. It's complicated.
First off, maybe this is all a statistical illusion. When the authors say that the people on drug fell into two classes, what they mean is that when you try to model the data according to a certain mathematical model, assuming either 1, 2, 3 or 4 underlying classes, the 2 class solution was the best fit. While for placebo a 1 class solution was best.
We considered linear, quadratic, and cubic trends over time, with between 1 and 4 trajectory classes. We also considered piecewise models with a change point at 2 weeks, linear change before week 2, and quadratic change after week 2. The selection of the best model was based on the Schwartz-Bayesian information criterion and on the Lo-Mendell-Rubin (LMR) likelihood ratio test...That's nice... but they don't present the raw data. They don't tell us whether, looking at the individual trajectories of people on antidepressants, you'd actually see two classes. What I want is a graph of how likely people are to get better by a certain amount. If Gueorguieva et al are right, I want it to look like this i.e. bimodal -
We're not shown this graph. I'll eat my hat if it does look like that, frankly, because if it did people would have noticed the bimodality in antidepressant trials ages ago.
True, statistical models can tell us things that aren't obvious by inspection, so even if this isn't what the data look like, they might still be right. It could be that the two "peaks" are so broad, and there's so much random noise, that they blur into one.
However, it's also true that you can fit an infinite number of models to any set of data and at some point you have to step back and say - am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?
It could be that a 2-class model is better than a 1-class model for the people on antidepressants, but only because they're both crap, and really, every patient has a different, unpredictable trajectory which is poorly captured by such models.
Let's assume however that this is true. What would it mean?
Firstly, the fact that one class of people on antidepressants does worse than people on placebo doesn't mean that antidepressants are harming them. The authors miss this point, when they say
there are 2 trajectories for patients treated with antidepressants and 1 trajectory for patients treated with placebo [so] some patients would seem to be more effectively treated with placebo than with a serotonergic antidepressant.But that's fallacious. It treats a purely statistical entity as representing individual people. Suppose that what antidepressants do is to take people who, on placebo, would have improved a bit, and make them improve a bit more than they otherwise would have. You'd then end up with more people doing well, but also fewer people doing moderately because they'd have been "moved up" out of the middle ground.
That "nudging people off the fence" could lead to a bimodal distribution and two distinct classes. But in this case the people doing badly would have done badly either way. The drug didn't make them do badly, it just made doing-badly into a class. On the other hand it's consistent with antidepressants doing real harm. We can't tell.
We do know that other randomized controlled trials show very convincingly that in a small minority of people, mostly but not exclusively young people, antidepressants do worsen suicidal thoughts and behaviours. So it's plausible. But we just don't know yet.
What worries me is that this paper is the latest in a series of attempts to use, well, creative statistical approaches to antidepressant trial data. This one is nowhere near as dodgy as the Cherrypicker's Manifesto I discussed last year, but it cites that paper and others by the same group. The first sentence of the Abstract of this paper makes the intention clear:
The high percentage of failed clinical trials in depression may be due to high placebo response rates and the failure of standard statistical approaches to capture heterogeneity in treatment response.In other words, the reason clinical trials of new antidepressants often fail to show a benefit over placebo is not because the drugs are crap but because the statistics aren't subtle enough. And you can see where this is going: if only we could use statistical models to find the people who do benefit from antidepressants, and compare them to placebo, there'd be no problem...

25 comments:
In addition, they fitted complex models to data, and so may have run the risk of overfitting, whereby they are actually modelling noise.
Its a terrible shame, as given that they were analysing whole trials of data, they could easily have set aside some data a testing set. If they had done so, this result might have meant something. In essence though, this is poorly analysed garbage in terms of statistics.
I wish someone made a serious research about this, I took antidepressants for a long time and they made me far worse than before taking them.
I'm a longtime reader. I just wanted to say that I think Neuroskeptic is sharp as a razor. Keep up the great science.
I agree with anonymous above.
They can actually do a lot of harm. Most doctors haven't had the priviledge to try these drugs or haven't had a depression. If they had, i think they would never have prescribed most of the ssri available today. Believe me, it fries the brain and you'll never be the same again.
Was I was younger taking antidepressant they defintely only made me worse.
Very important to point out that this paper was sponsored by Eli Lilly, manufacturer of Cymbalta, to support moving unresponding patients from an antidepressant to "another class" of drug or adding an adjunct, perhaps their yummy atypical antipsychotic Zyprexa.
Thus keeping the profits from in the family. Efficacy is beside the point, hence the obscuring of raw data.
Watch for the sequel with the obvious pitches for the antipsychotic.
So if Lilly filters out the poorest responding 25% they can claim that, for most people, antidepressents are quite effective in comparison to a placebo. That's one way to spin research that shows that they are not more effective.
Seems like another example of big Pharma marketing and science for pay.
Last winter I made the mistake of stopping my fluoxitine which I had been taking for years. After about 3 weeks I slipped into a hellish depression and spent the holidays in bed, not wanting to talk to a single soul- it took about three more weeks to start feeling good again after restarting the medication. So if you asked me I would tell you that Prozac works.....
Anonymous 12 December 2011 02:01
If you asked me I would explain that fluoxetine is no placebo for the side effects.
You should always be very careful and go slowly tapering the dosage when you decide to do without.
This is one of the dirtiest tricks of Big Pharma: give treatments for life since your client will get worse as soon as they stop antidepressant, antipsychotics.
With that line of reasoning, nobody should never try to detox from any addiction
and withdrawal symptoms (physical and/or psychological ) would be the absolute proof of the health benefit of heroin, severe alcohol chronic addiction, smoking etc...
It is one of the dirtiest trick of Big Pharma: the pseudodemonstration of efficacy by the worsening of the clinical picture but if you take alcohol in large quantity daily for years and stop without medical assistance you risk seizures, delirium tremens If your psychiatrist do not agree with the progressive withdrawal of the drug, dicuss itto help you ask him why he didn't precribe tricyclics if he (she) thought you so much in need of an antidepressant chemical treatment, take a second opinion or present him with
1) If you take alcohol for years to treat depression or survive tense situations and stop without medical care you might end up with delirium tremens seing your coworkers doing funny things and asking your help in your flat or whatever very vivid hallucinations and you might died from that delirium tremens.
Is it proof that alcohol is the best treatment for depression or an unpleasant life? you need to be very well looked after and might need valium to prevent seizure
at :
And I can, as anecdotally, answer that it does not work, I "belong" in the placebo group, obviously.
But as my experience was when Prozac was new, I would not want to try the new chemical.
Very probable, this is a marketing approach by the corporation finacing the study, and somebody who is glad that there is money for playing around with the math.
And as long the patients are not too patient with being guinea pigs, and try some placebo again before the next brandnew medication, and talking is still being paid for, maybe the next generation can cope also.
I wish you all a single-payer-healthcare system!
Neuroskeptic
Sorry to comment twice - when I promised myself to let neuroscientists and friends between themselves- but I lacked a little courage when I suppressed the end of my
12 December 2011 08:42 comment. here it is:
Anonymous 12 December 2011 02:01
(...)at any rate you can remind your doctor of that part of the medical oath taken after an ancien Greek physician:
to seldom cure but always ease the pain and relieve the suffering.
I trust you to know precisely about your suffering from the chronic antidepressant treatment painful side effects
(physical,psychological, social etc...) you wanted to get rid of.
@Neuroskeptic,
You're last sentence implies that it would be a bad thing to determine which people do respond to ADMs and then compare them to placebo.
But why is that bad? Surely it would be of benefit to know the characteristics of the subgroup of people who seem to benefit? If we know who does and does not get better with ADMs, we can limit exposure to side-effects and get busy developing better treatments for the people who do not get better...
What's wrong with that?
Paul: I was slightly opaque there. What I meant was, it's worrying that people are proposing a focus on subgroups as an alternative to studying the effect of antidepressants on the average patient.
Studying subgroups is a fine thing in itself, but it's being proposed (quite openly) as a way of making clinical trials of antidepressants more likely to be positive, which is very dubious.
If antidepressants aren't doing any better than placebo in trials then that's because they don't work in the people who take part in the trials.
The only solution is to either invent better drugs, or recruit people who do benefit from the drugs and the main predictor of drug response is severity.
If people were proposing to only recruit severely depressed people then I'd have no issue with it.
But they're not, they're proposing to keep recruiting the same people and use statistical wizardry to magic up a positive result.
8 weeks seems too short a time frame.
If depression is an adaptive reaction that has developed along the lines of the precautionary principle (like hitting your hand with a hammer, it hurts a lot more than we think it needs to to tell not to do that again) It follows that average depression will feel very nasty, out of all proportion. Combine this with the fact that all antidepressants seems to work best for people with a major depression and these studies seem increasingly to rely on groups of people who are only feeling quite nasty but don't have a major depression, it is hard to see the point of a lot of the research in the first place. Other than come up with some good reasons to prescribe some cosmetic medication to people who don't feel they deserve to feel depressed.
Could you send me the PDF of the Arch Gen Psych article? Somehow I can't access it from McGill. patrick DOT mineault AT gmail DOT com. Thanks.
I'd really like to see the lowest quartile and the top three quartiles of the placebo group plotted. And the un-split experimental group.
BILL MAHER's has an opinion on that post of NS in the "beyond categories" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHXXTCc-IVgC.B.
Also C.B. Nemeroff - a very clever academic psychiatrist- thinks that depression in persons having suffered early life trauma are not responding to antidepressant drugs no matter the severity and that those cases respond better to psychotherapy.
Why not test that kind of idea in selecting subjects into different trial treatment groups according to a simple enough information: nothing to declare in early years or somthing real bad (early death of a parent, divorce of the parents, death of a sibling, incest, earthquake or flood survivors) ?
NB: The opposite of that wise idea from Pr Nemeroff aiming may be at promoting psychotherapy but still susceptible to help at finding which persons have the more reasonable chances to get more benefits -if any- than side effects and addiction from antidepressants;
- very pleasing to Big Pharma-
Is the Munich professor Möller -or something close - advocated at the last Eur Ass of Psy Vienna 2012 meeting: You need psychotherapy plus drugs plus social support for every person diagnosed with depression.
Bill Maher link is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHXXTCc-IVg
without Pr Nemeroff initials!
Anonymous 12 December 2011 02:01
If you were not an activist from Big Pharma
- and bright neuroscientists and psychiatrists' blogs are not pirated only by the scientologists
except that the scientologists speak out sometimes -once at least in NS blog.
Let me tell you that by reducing slowly the dosage of you antidepressant - under a non-paternalist psychiatrist supervision and support- you might find that actually a much lower dosage work for you.
A lot of aspies like a very low dosage of many medications of the "5HT antidepressant class" for an example- not to say you look like one to me.
I have known people I helped withdraw from benzodiazepine addiction -in my hospitals days- who wouldn't do without a very low dosage of a tricyclic antidepressant.
Tricyclic antidepressant work better according to my psychiatrists friends and are easier to quit... Ring a bell about expensive antipsychotics?
Dear Roger,
I am quitting commenting on that blog -not reading it though- for good today since I am finished with my self-imposed mission on the 6 10 11 blog of NS on packing and neurosciences comments.
Neuroskeptic,
In responding to Paul, you say that the drug makers should focus on the 'average patient'. That seems self-defeating to me. We have gotten about as far as we are going to get focusing on broad diagnostic categories. I think what we have learned is that nature doesn't follow DSM. Expanding on what Paul said, we know beyond doubt that there is no 'average' patient; that some people respond and some people don't and that some people who don't respond to one drug do respond to another. These differences are biological to some extent, rooted in genetics and development. But we don't now know what biology to focus on to better personalize treatment and improve drug response. If we can reliably classify people based on observable characteristics, like response patterns or nuanced symptom profiles or even simpler information (e.g., sex), maybe we can use those classification schemes to begin to understand the biological differences among classes, though genetic association studies and the like. Those kinds of studies might begin to provide the kind of traction on underlying biological heterogeneity that will allow us to move on from the plateau we have been stuck on for the past decade or two. Statistical modeling has many limitations, as you point out, but it offers one approach to generating novel classifications schemes. In my opinion, with due caution, we need to be trying such new methods.
Dwight
Dwight Dickinson: Thanks for the comment. I can see your point. My worry is that fancy statistics are being used as an alternative to the kind of meaningful subgroup stuff that you describe - i.e. that they are being used as a cheap way of enhancing the performance of old-style trials, rather than as a way of pioneering genuinely new science. I guess I'm just a bit less optimistic than you about how it will play out... we will have to wait and see.
Not sure if i've just missed the point about all the stats chat but have you also considered that some people in the study might be bipolar? evidence suggests that taking antidepressants if you are bipolar actually worsens the course of the condition. Admittedly it is supposed to induce a manic or hypomanic state, but after this stage depression usually reoccurs and is worse in nature.
Hi I think we must be careful when taking antidepressants mainly for not becoming dependent on them and become an addiction
First, I have to say this is a terrific blog.
Second, maybe you've seen this, but some have taken this concept a bit further:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201106/now-antidepressant-induced-chronic-depression-has-name-tardive-dysphoria
I'm a complete layman, so I don't have much meaningful commentary, but do you think there are any strong possibilities that long term SSRI use could cause permanent negative effects on the brain, particularly in children? Apologies if you've commentated on this before...
Antidepressants made me worse. Ahhhh I wish I could feel emotion again.
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